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Other => Philosophy => Topic started by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 17, 2010, 05:57:14 AM



Title: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 17, 2010, 05:57:14 AM
I think this is a common question that Philosophy teachers, especially atheists, ask. Well, what do you think?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Wizard Dil on November 17, 2010, 06:40:09 AM
well i kinda think god of not as a person but more of a spirit type thing no shape or anything (just my opinion) ;D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on November 17, 2010, 10:05:19 AM
id say no

but the idea of something better after we die, then yes
(religious orogin imo)

i still say were born to the planet therefore when we die our essence returns to the planet


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on November 17, 2010, 11:03:31 AM
Put simply?

No.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 18, 2010, 05:18:11 AM
Follow-up question: How do we define 'God'?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on November 18, 2010, 09:43:25 AM
a state of hope
a feeling of need
the human need for a better purpose
etc

to provoke some debate (i have more in mind for a later date :D )
-
what are your thoughts on knowing that christanity in terms of religon is relativly new in comparason to other religons


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Victor on November 18, 2010, 01:13:11 PM
There has to be a god all those teachings all those who died in the name of God and he allows us to do magic .


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: MiddeM on November 18, 2010, 01:28:19 PM
The actual answer is yes.
There is the ultimate divinite, a force with will, whatever you see in one and many.
He exists, but it is like an atom wonders if a human exists..


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on November 18, 2010, 03:09:33 PM
Depends what you mean by god. Christian god? no
There is the Prime creator, but its /hes /shes not one person or being, but we all are a part of him.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on November 18, 2010, 03:25:54 PM
I believe in 'The Great Spirit', the force that sets things in motion and maintains life, it keeps the interdependent cycle of motions happening so everything in the world keeps going in the synchronised way it does. it is a force that is to respected, to be thankful to, but is not a being as such, and is not personal. the personal bit- i.e. who you can pray to and ask for help, the omniscient, omnibenevolent beings, are angels. then you have spirits who are not divine in anyway like the spirits of those who have passed on, and anything else that may be out there. ^_^ That is my 'religion', as an eclectic panentheist.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 19, 2010, 04:49:08 AM
Exactly. The belief in God depends on how we define the term 'God'.

Follow-up questions: (1) How do we define the term 'Christian God'? (2) Do people become atheists because they don't believe in a certain religion although still believe in a God, a higher force, a great spirit, or a supreme being? (3) What is the difference between 'God' and a 'Supreme Being' or any similar terms?

(I wonder what's Saveyna's definition of 'God'. :))


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on November 19, 2010, 04:52:26 PM
A mythological higher being who was created as an easy answer to the problems faced by humanity.

MiddeM, what do you mean? How does an atom wonder if humans exist?? You cannot say for certain there is a God. Not outright like that.

I am an atheist because after what religion has done, to me personally and thousands of others, it can go to hell. God, if it exists, is most certainly not a supreme being. Look at how messed-up the world is. Earthquakes, tsunamis, I'm talking about the natural side of things, not the human caused parts. It messed up big time.

This should be interesting. I realise my point of view is extreme. This should be a good debate! *rubs hands together* :D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on November 19, 2010, 11:12:14 PM
A mythological higher being who was created as an easy answer to the problems faced by humanity.

Look at how messed-up the world is. Earthquakes, tsunamis, I'm talking about the natural side of things, not the human caused parts. It messed up big time.

This should be interesting. I realise my point of view is extreme. This should be a good debate! *rubs hands together* :D

defination sounds about right
earth quakes and what not - i put this down to the planet its self controling the population numbers on the planet
and again i shall point to my question above *points*


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on November 20, 2010, 06:11:16 AM
4 words: Brain in a vat


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Wizard Dil on November 20, 2010, 06:19:06 AM
yes but why do you think they have the natural diasters is it either:
to keep the world balanced.

or is it to warn people that what they are doing is bad.

If you just flick on the tele there is some natural disaster meaning the gods are telling us that we shouldn't be so greedy on stuff and kill the planet.

I dunno just a thought of that came into mind while reading this so yer kinda makes sense dont ya think. :-\


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on November 20, 2010, 08:32:17 AM
That's even worse. God punishing people like that would kill inoccents. Such crude methods. And corporal punishment! Death sentence! Hell, the 'creator', if he exists, is not a nice guy/girl.

Christianity is still older than religions like whatever muslims are. Which is why women are respected and priests of the religion act like they're in the 21st century, rather than the 15th, locking women up and having men in control of everything. It is, quite frankly, disgusting.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on November 20, 2010, 11:49:24 AM
Lol. Reminds me of a vid I saw once. Want me to find it for you?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on November 20, 2010, 02:51:11 PM
Supreme being does not involve in our life. why? Because in a way we are the supreme being. in our core we are untouchable, and our earthly life is like a training field. How much would you learn from your life if God did everything for you? If there are no bad things there cannot be any good things. Our life is meant to be like that. in order for our souls to evolve we must know both good and bad.
So what if you die? so what if hundred people die because of a disaster? they died physically, but then again this life is just an illusion.


does anyone understand what im trying to say?
and this is my point of view that i find most logical.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on November 20, 2010, 03:20:31 PM
Dude. all the crap in the world? not caused by a god. known as yin yan. BALANCE.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 21, 2010, 07:17:53 AM
Supreme being does not involve in our life. why? Because in a way we are the supreme being. in our core we are untouchable, and our earthly life is like a training field. How much would you learn from your life if God did everything for you? If there are no bad things there cannot be any good things. Our life is meant to be like that. in order for our souls to evolve we must know both good and bad.
So what if you die? so what if hundred people die because of a disaster? they died physically, but then again this life is just an illusion.


does anyone understand what im trying to say?
and this is my point of view that i find most logical.

I agree.

Dude. all the crap in the world? not caused by a god. known as yin yan. BALANCE.

I also agree.

A mythological higher being who was created as an easy answer to the problems faced by humanity.

MiddeM, what do you mean? How does an atom wonder if humans exist?? You cannot say for certain there is a God. Not outright like that.

I am an atheist because after what religion has done, to me personally and thousands of others, it can go to hell. God, if it exists, is most certainly not a supreme being. Look at how messed-up the world is. Earthquakes, tsunamis, I'm talking about the natural side of things, not the human caused parts. It messed up big time.

This should be interesting. I realise my point of view is extreme. This should be a good debate! *rubs hands together* :D

That's another common atheist statement - God is evil. Well, is God evil? Like what a popular scientist said, 'Evil' is the absence of 'Good', just like 'Cold' is the absence of 'Heat', and 'Darkness' is the absence of 'Light'. We have free will. When we do not use this will to 'create Good', Evil takes place.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on November 21, 2010, 09:33:01 AM
Quote
When we do not use this will to 'create Good', Evil takes place.
A lot of people say that. See, while that whole thing sounds really smart and philosophical, think about it. It's absolute rubbish; the world does not work like that. Just because I'm not good does not make me evil. No conscious effort to do good does not make you bad, if there is no conscious effort to do what we call 'evil'. There is a grey area that such statements do not encompass.

I don't think this life is an illusion. Nice way to help someone sleep their life away though; making them believe this place is not real.

In the end, it's all speculation. All opinions. No one can be sure.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: MiddeM on November 21, 2010, 01:57:59 PM
A mythological higher being who was created as an easy answer to the problems faced by humanity.

MiddeM, what do you mean? How does an atom wonder if humans exist?? You cannot say for certain there is a God. Not outright like that.

I am an atheist because after what religion has done, to me personally and thousands of others, it can go to hell. God, if it exists, is most certainly not a supreme being. Look at how messed-up the world is. Earthquakes, tsunamis, I'm talking about the natural side of things, not the human caused parts. It messed up big time.

This should be interesting. I realise my point of view is extreme. This should be a good debate! *rubs hands together* :D

I mean it is like we are the atoms and we wonder if the body exists calling it a God. I gave an example of how the situation is.

--

Tsunamis, earthquakes seems bad aren't they?
The point is that we try to be balanced beings.
If there was no earthquakes and tsunamis we would complain for something else, like the unfair of the world, if this did not exists then we would for something else.
It is a design, if you pay attention on it.
We are here to educate ourselves on anything, a coin have two sides, without one side it simply cant exist.
We are like the Ying-Yang symbol, to be the circle, to be completed we need both good and bad things.
If you are having a bad life in your opinion, that might be because you had a happy one in your past life. What I try to say is that we must all go through everything, both good and bad things.

That's even worse. God punishing people like that would kill inoccents. Such crude methods. And corporal punishment! Death sentence! Hell, the 'creator', if he exists, is not a nice guy/girl.

Christianity is still older than religions like whatever muslims are. Which is why women are respected and priests of the religion act like they're in the 21st century, rather than the 15th, locking women up and having men in control of everything. It is, quite frankly, disgusting.

That is a god that is published from religions with the purpose to control people with fear.
God has nothing to do with punishments because a punishment is only an earthly being could create to cause harm to others. It is just another word of causing damage to others.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Wizard Dil on November 22, 2010, 05:46:08 AM
That's even worse. God punishing people like that would kill inoccents. Such crude methods. And corporal punishment! Death sentence! Hell, the 'creator', if he exists, is not a nice guy/girl.

Christianity is still older than religions like whatever muslims are. Which is why women are respected and priests of the religion act like they're in the 21st century, rather than the 15th, locking women up and having men in control of everything. It is, quite frankly, disgusting.
but what is "god" is he/she good or bad or a balance of both, kinda ike karma we ruin the planet we die or even not death loss of personal belongings. see where im getting at. ;D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 22, 2010, 07:47:34 AM
Quote
When we do not use this will to 'create Good', Evil takes place.
A lot of people say that. See, while that whole thing sounds really smart and philosophical, think about it. It's absolute rubbish; the world does not work like that. Just because I'm not good does not make me evil. No conscious effort to do good does not make you bad, if there is no conscious effort to do what we call 'evil'. There is a grey area that such statements do not encompass.

I don't think this life is an illusion. Nice way to help someone sleep their life away though; making them believe this place is not real.

In the end, it's all speculation. All opinions. No one can be sure.

I was basing from the quotation I mentioned. Again, its states, Evil is the absence of Good. It's true that not doing good does not technically make one evil. But, to not do good things is to be bad in a way that you are selfish. And, you are selfish in a way that you don't care about the bad things that happen around you and does not try to make something good out of it. To clear things up, it is simply: Without good, there is evil; Without balance, there is imbalance; Without peace, there is chaos; Without heat, there is cold; Without light, there is darkness. It somehow goes along with this another statement: It takes years to build trust, but only seconds to destroy it. Meaning, we use 'energy' to make something good, and that we do not exert much effort at all to let bad things to happen.

That's even worse. God punishing people like that would kill inoccents. Such crude methods. And corporal punishment! Death sentence! Hell, the 'creator', if he exists, is not a nice guy/girl.

Christianity is still older than religions like whatever muslims are. Which is why women are respected and priests of the religion act like they're in the 21st century, rather than the 15th, locking women up and having men in control of everything. It is, quite frankly, disgusting.
but what is "god" is he/she good or bad or a balance of both, kinda ike karma we ruin the planet we die or even not death loss of personal belongings. see where im getting at. ;D

I think He keeps the balance of everything. Like I said, without balance, there is imbalance. In a panentheist point of view (I hope I get this right), He is the animating force behind things.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on November 22, 2010, 09:20:17 AM
Christianity is still older than religions like whatever muslims are. Which is why women are respected and priests of the religion act like they're in the 21st century, rather than the 15th, locking women up and having men in control of everything. It is, quite frankly, disgusting.
true. however it was oficially made a religon by the romans to give slaves and what not hope durring there captivity. nice bunch of folk the romans wer lyke  :-\

Quote
When we do not use this will to 'create Good', Evil takes place.
A lot of people say that. See, while that whole thing sounds really smart and philosophical, think about it. It's absolute rubbish; the world does not work like that. Just because I'm not good does not make me evil. No conscious effort to do good does not make you bad, if there is no conscious effort to do what we call 'evil'. There is a grey area that such statements do not encompass.

I don't think this life is an illusion. Nice way to help someone sleep their life away though; making them believe this place is not real.

In the end, it's all speculation. All opinions. No one can be sure.

*seconds that*


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on November 23, 2010, 02:49:33 AM
To middem:

i totally understood your atom analogy and thought it was a rather good one :D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on November 23, 2010, 02:09:18 PM
Lol. Scientifically makes little sense, but hey, we're not getting technical here. I know what he means. :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: MiddeM on November 23, 2010, 02:16:15 PM
To middem:

i totally understood your atom analogy and thought it was a rather good one :D

Thank you.  :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 24, 2010, 08:08:19 AM
2nd Main Question (This one's also talked about often by atheist philosophers, I believe.): Did God create Evil?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on November 24, 2010, 01:10:54 PM
By my opinion evil doesnt exist, evil is just a qualitative adjective given to a action by humans. Its very subjective matter. I believe that everything that happens is good for something and there is no evil.

I find it kinda difficult to explain :D

It's kinda like magic in my opinion. its similar. Some say black / white magic but that is just a label given to it by humans. Magic doesn't have a color, same as actions and decisions aren't evil. There are malevolent forces however i suppose i could call evil. Like reptilians, but they are good from their perspective. again in my opinion they aren't evil. Supreme being (by my belief) created a race that later on created other races including us. we are all beings of light, no matter what you say. and we made words and definitions of good and evil. therefore i say god didn't create evil, but we got freedom of choice and we created words and definitions of good and evil, by my opinion everything is neutral.

hope i haven't made it too confusing.. :)

.:blessings:.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on November 24, 2010, 04:11:44 PM
I completely agree. How do you define evil? An earthquake is thought of by many as evil. But, it's nature! Okay, a better example would be a freedom fighter. He kills for his religion and believes that is good, while others clearly think it bad. Do you see? It is impossible to define such a word, such an emotive word, to set clear boundaries.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Chrismage on November 25, 2010, 12:39:44 AM

created a ace
i think you meant *race


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 26, 2010, 06:24:42 AM
Then, by our own definition of 'evil', is God evil?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on November 26, 2010, 11:05:31 AM
Okay. a better question is define good, then define evil. off you go, everyone have a go


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on November 26, 2010, 11:08:06 AM
Me.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on November 26, 2010, 11:38:24 AM

created a ace
i think you meant *race

yes, thank you :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: MiddeM on November 26, 2010, 12:38:17 PM
Baelali, long time no see.

It is long since we had a discussion on msn, is it not?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on November 26, 2010, 03:48:33 PM
Define good, then evil. Okay, the answer is very simple. IMPOSSIBLE. It depends on an individual's view, there are no clear boundaries and none can be set, because to embrace the view of some is to ignore the view of others. Does that make sense? Opinions are always divided, and to choose one over another means, as I said, ignoring one.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on November 26, 2010, 06:20:32 PM
Baelali, long time no see.

It is long since we had a discussion on msn, is it not?
we haven't really seen eachother now have we? :) WE're getting off topic so PM me if you wish to talk about anything, good to see you :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on November 27, 2010, 02:43:27 AM
My exact point moonshadow ^_^ so now answer me this- how can god be good OR evil, if we don't even know what good and evil are?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 27, 2010, 06:44:43 AM
Then, we have to define 'good' and 'evil' with the use of our own opinions. (xD)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Wizard Dil on November 27, 2010, 06:56:44 AM
i guess it's just what you said T.E it can't be defined it's only an opinion and i agree. ;D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on November 27, 2010, 03:21:16 PM
Good and evil are concepts. God cannot be labelled as such, however it (I will not put a label on a God's gender!) is also often credited with the ability to cause events detrimental to humanity in general. Clearly then, he would fit the description.

Does the good a person does balance the bad? Can you redeem yourself?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on November 28, 2010, 01:54:46 AM
doubt it... whats done is done and cannot be un-done after all :D

good and evil. well as says that is all down to perception


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on November 29, 2010, 08:16:43 AM
Good and evil are concepts. God cannot be labelled as such, however it (I will not put a label on a God's gender!) is also often credited with the ability to cause events detrimental to humanity in general. Clearly then, he would fit the description.

Does the good a person does balance the bad? Can you redeem yourself?

For me, yes, 'cause when you do good, the bad you do is lessened. I mean, you can redeem yourself by doing as much good as you have done bad. Therefore, they get balanced. Wait, what? I'm confused by the question xD.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on November 29, 2010, 02:47:28 PM
No no, you answered fine, Enchanter! :) I'm not sure I agree though...all personal opinon here, but if you kill someone, no matter how much good you do it doesn't bring them back. And the loss and sadness you have caused his family can never be repaired, time the great healer be damned. Someone dies in your family, you never completely get over it. Such an event changes you.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: MiddeM on December 02, 2010, 12:02:11 PM
Omg, you have 666 post!  :D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Victor on December 02, 2010, 12:12:04 PM
I noticed that too but I didn't post cause now that she'll reply she'll have 667 .


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Chrismage on December 02, 2010, 01:11:22 PM
That reminded me about tuesday. I went on youtube and saw a vid that had 66,666 views! Oh and like 1 year back i saw 1337 views.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Victor on December 02, 2010, 01:14:05 PM
What's with 1337 views ?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on December 02, 2010, 01:16:31 PM
leet?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on December 02, 2010, 02:50:24 PM
i think that was a mistranslation
it was ment to be 616 not 666

cant rember where herd that though  :-\


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Victor on December 02, 2010, 02:59:43 PM
Man 666 the number of Satan .


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on December 02, 2010, 03:06:34 PM
im on about a mis translation from the origonal text. *reserch required*


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on December 02, 2010, 03:14:58 PM
You heard it on QI, said by Mr Stephen Fry? that's where i heard the mistranslation thing from... ^_^


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 02, 2010, 04:17:07 PM
:( 669, but now I'm gonna go reply to other posts and it'll be more... why do I want the number of Satan as my number of posts again? XD


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on December 02, 2010, 04:30:42 PM
You heard it on QI, said by Mr Stephen Fry? that's where i heard the mistranslation thing from... ^_^

is it. not his voice heer wen recal it  :-\


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Wizard Dil on December 03, 2010, 04:35:37 AM
If the demons hurt me or others i know well i'll hunt them down and give them a well right back hand lol. ;D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 03, 2010, 09:31:17 AM
Omg, you have 666 post!  :D

How did you know about that? o.o
- - - - - - -
Anyway, I want to know Cassandra's opinion on this. Can't believe MiddeM started the off-topicness. >.< I thought of locking this topic already...


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 03, 2010, 11:37:17 AM
Hey, calm T.E, breathe. Really, we'll get right back on topic! :)


Does heaven really exist or is it just wishful thinking? How can there possibly be life after death? And where, physically, is God? Or is he just a cosy sort of conceptual being?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on December 03, 2010, 12:34:32 PM
He knew because he looked at her post count?!


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 04, 2010, 06:23:06 AM
Hey, calm T.E, breathe. Really, we'll get right back on topic! :)


Does heaven really exist or is it just wishful thinking? How can there possibly be life after death? And where, physically, is God? Or is he just a cosy sort of conceptual being?

Well, I've heard that Hell does exist. There was once a man who temporarily died in a hospital and when he was 'shocked' back to life, he went screaming, "I'm in Hell!!!" So, probably, Heaven exists too. xD Where is God? Hmm, dunno. Maybe He's in the entire universe. He's probably too 'big' to take physical form that He's everywhere. One of St. John Baptist de La Salle's prayers is 'Let us remember that we are in the holy presence of God.'

He knew because he looked at her post count?!

Most probably. xD


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 04, 2010, 06:30:42 AM
Hey, calm T.E, breathe. Really, we'll get right back on topic! :)


Does heaven really exist or is it just wishful thinking? How can there possibly be life after death? And where, physically, is God? Or is he just a cosy sort of conceptual being?

1) depends what you mean by heaven :) angels are very real and so is god(*).

2) How can not be? we are matter and matter is energy, energy cannot be destroyed its only transformed into new kind of energy. our soul isn't powerful enough to materialize so we cannot see it within our spectrum of light. and studies have shown that body looses some weight after death. there are also countless reports of past lives (you can also experience it by hypnosis).

3) physically? nowhere. physical plane is just this plane that we live in. Planes above ours are no longer physical (eg. Astral plane and so on..).
(*)
God lives beyond many planes. that is my belief, but it always depends what you understand by word god. christian god is non existent, although some would dispute this.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 04, 2010, 06:35:39 AM
Um, how do you define Christian God again? o.o


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on December 04, 2010, 06:39:39 AM
Dude that has multipule personalitys like a bitch? (quoting a vbid)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 04, 2010, 06:56:20 AM
Um, how do you define Christian God again? o.o

god that loves humans and sends them to suffer in hell.

the one from the bible.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on December 04, 2010, 01:22:02 PM
Well, I've heard that Hell does exist. There was once a man who temporarily died in a hospital and when he was 'shocked' back to life, he went screaming, "I'm in Hell!!!" So, probably, Heaven exists too. xD Where is God? Hmm, dunno. Maybe He's in the entire universe. He's probably too 'big' to take physical form that He's everywhere. One of St. John Baptist de La Salle's prayers is 'Let us remember that we are in the holy presence of God.'

maybe he didnt lyke hospitals
if i was in a hospital getting shocked back to life id be lyke OMF i am in hell. lol


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on December 04, 2010, 02:46:29 PM
Lmao!

'the christian god does not exist, but some would dispute this.... like... well... christians....' XD

no offence meant- that's just how i read it in my head and it made me smile :D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 05, 2010, 06:41:09 AM
maybe he didnt lyke hospitals
if i was in a hospital getting shocked back to life id be lyke OMF i am in hell. lol

o.o If I am to take that seriously, I'll dislike that reply. But, since it was a joke, lol :D

Um, how do you define Christian God again? o.o

god that loves humans and sends them to suffer in hell.

the one from the bible.

Are you serious? That's not who the Christian God is. Your definition is totally poor. >.< The Christian God loves every one of His creatures. He created the Earth and everything in it. He created Hell to punish Satan and his followers. When He created Adam and Eve, He gave them free will and did not stop them when they were already going to eat the Forbidden Fruit. Satan tempted them to eat the fruit because he envied the way God loves them and treats them. Satan envies humans for God loves them so he tempts them to fall into sin.

If you'll ever ask why God, being all-powerful and all-knowing, doesn't prevent the bad things that happen to us even though He has the capability to do so, it is because Earth is not Heaven nor was it made like it, and that Earth can be 'visited' by the foul ones from Hell. Like I said, we are given free will and it is up to us to use it for good or for evil.

Possible reader's/s' question #1 - If God is all-knowing, then why did He get surprised after Adam and Eve ate from the Forbidden Fruit?
 - My answer: He was not surprised. It was never said that He was surprised.

Possible reader's/s' question #2 - Why did God even create the Forbidden Fruit, much less the Tree of Knowledge which the fruit came from?
 - My answer: God gave us free will (why do I keep on repeating this? lol). And, basing from what I just read, He created the fruit for it to be eaten. He 'planned' it although he forbade it to be eaten. He is all-knowing after all.
 - Additional answer: There were two trees at the center of Eden: The Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge. The eating of the Forbidden Fruit was meant to make Man realize His need for God. The Tree of Life symbolizes God's Mercy and its fruit represents the love Man receives from God. Again That is also one reason why God gave us free will. I slightly think that when we love God in return, it is a huge slap in the face for Satan as part of the punishment.
- - - - - - -
Here are some helpful links:
1. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=67850
2. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/683491/jewish/Why-did-Adam-and-Eve-become-aware-of-their-nakedness-only-after-they-sinned.htm
3. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080901070010AA0z9sj
4. http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1119554878.htm
5. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/461641
- - - - - - -
I think that's enough 'preaching' for now. I was supposed to add another possible question which is 'Why did God give us free will?' but I think it is  really huge question.

I suppose, I'm the only Catholic here. I thought it would be nice to share some of my knowledge regarding my faith. Here's an addition - The Apostles' Creed is the definition of Catholic Faith:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and Earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,
His only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.
and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the 3rd day, he rose again.
He ascended into Heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living in the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of Sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 05, 2010, 08:27:30 AM
I know what the essence of christianity is and i know that my statement was a bit provocative, but it was not a lie. We have free will (do we? - no we dont really, but thats another story) and if we choose to do evil we will suffer in hell, will we not? but god loves all humanity, because we all are children of god. but he sends us to hell if we disobey him? does he truly love us? i mean if he would love us, he wouldnt send me to hell (from where you cannot return, its not like purgatory where you clean yourself and move on. you stay there forever). does he love me? - yes
will he send me to hell if i disobey him too much? - yes

so he loves me and he will send me to burn in hell.


And this so called God, who gave him control over me? not me. I have free will and by my free will i choose to be free from his obsessive control over his followers. if you question god you disobey him (1st commandment = believe in ONE god (or something like that i dont know how its translated literally)). therefore if i don't question god (and the pope and priests because they are direct link to god) im not disobeying them. i am a sheep, just like they want. they want me to work and pray, not look around me and mind my business.

And the ONLY book or text that christianity (or more accurately catholic church stands upon), is the bible. Bible is one very confused book, because it is in constant contradiction with itself. here are some examples :



War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.




God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.




Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.



Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.




Righteous live?

PSA 92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

ISA 57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."


CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)



Who bears guilt?

GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.


source :http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#good_to_all (https://http://:http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#good_to_all)


and christians choose to follow this book that was written not by god, but by man.

and sorry for long post.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 05, 2010, 03:03:23 PM
Um. People seem to be giving their answers as concrete. Don't forget this is all, and I mean all speculation. We cannot know anything for certain, only our opinions. Just a little heads up, I think we should remember to always make that clear!  ;)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 06, 2010, 07:11:47 AM
Baelali, He's not the one who's sending bad people to Hell. And, Christians are supposed to follow Christ and God, not necessarily the Bible. I don't read the Bible like others do.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 06, 2010, 09:34:50 AM
well catholic church is build upon bible, not on christ. im not saying anything about jesus, if catholic church followed him all would be good.

who sends people to hell then if not god? And if he is all knowing and all present why does he allow it to hppen? since they cannot be saved later.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 06, 2010, 11:11:52 AM
Quote
if catholic church followed him all would be good.
'Scuse me, did anyone hear what I said? It is your opinion that it would be good. Your opinon is not fact, your belief is not concrete proof. And, saying something like that could really offend someone, so calm it down a little. 

Why can't they be saved later? Oh, and I am an atheist anyway, but with my skewed little views I think accepting the bible as absolute truth is a bit naive...maybe?

All of this is based on the assumption God is real. One hell of an assumption.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 06, 2010, 06:14:29 PM
yes it's my belief, but i thought that that's pretty obvious so didn't feel the need to write it. but it is my opinion.



and im not really expressing my belief im talking about catholic view.


I know what god is and what god isn't, i also know what jesus, krishna, muhammad, and many others are. I just don't understand how on earth can people be satisfied by believing in something that is , well, not real. out of what do they derive their faith? their tradition? I'm just very dissapointed at seeing how naive humanity is and that makes agressive and i apologize to those that i have offended.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 07, 2010, 07:12:15 AM
well catholic church is build upon bible, not on christ. im not saying anything about jesus, if catholic church followed him all would be good.

who sends people to hell then if not god? And if he is all knowing and all present why does he allow it to hppen? since they cannot be saved later.

I think, the Devil pulls them down the Heaven. Like what I said, Satan envies humans.

And, belief in a god may be naive but what else would keep people from evil and being evil? If ever a day will come when it's proved that there is no God, there will be people who'll say "We can do whatever we want now!" Maybe, that's an exaggeration but it is possible. We can't deny the fact that religion and the belief in God is one of the major things that makes a huge number of good people good. Take David Archuleta for example. He's a Latter Day Saint Christian and he's one of the nicest persons I ever knew of. Hence, I can say that religion and belief in a god is not an illogical thing. We may say that it comes down to the person if he wants to be good or not but what will be the basis of good then? The way we describe 'good'? No, that is not enough basis. There will be a lot of people who'll feel free to do bad if there is no God.

Just like in the RPG, Grandia 2, the pope, Zera Innocentius, sided with Darkness because he knew of the fact that Granas, the God of Light, died ages ago already. Can't anyone here appreciate religion or the belief in God? (I'm exaggerating)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 07, 2010, 09:20:41 AM
as they say truth will set you free. i know that there is no god of such, but i still dont do evil. I'd rather die than do evil.
and yes, anyone can do evil, and they are  all allowed to do evil, but every bad thing can be a good thing, it only depends on a perspective nothing else. in the end we are all fine. I dont worry anymore that i may die the next day, because i know that death is not the end, but very very far from it. in my way of thinking life is more like death than death is, but unfortunatelly i cannot prove my words. But it will be proven later in time (in about 500 years mybe).


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on December 07, 2010, 02:37:22 PM
*Clears throat* ahem...

i believe in a 'god' of sorts (see explanation early on in this topic). my belief is based on my own religious experience, not tradition ^_^ therefore you can see that there are more reasons for a belief in a divine spirit than just the teachings of a religion. and no matter what anyone says, they can't disprove the existence of divine beings to me, or anyone like me. because i have witnessed it already, and KNOW. ^_^

you see?

actually, if you ask people you know you might be suprised how many people have had some form of religious or spiritual experience in their life, be it 'small' or major.

but i do agree with you that religion is more about worshipping man-made traditions, than the god. and i also believe that organised religions can limit your mind, and force you into believing another person's concept of god- which we cannot prove correct anymore than the next theory.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 07, 2010, 02:56:06 PM
Did the reality show you this experiance, or have you created reality in such way that you created the experience? (i missed few words lol but i hope you understand what i want to ask :) )


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 07, 2010, 04:28:32 PM
T.E. - As you say, there must be a reason not to kill and steal, maim and destroy, and sadly for some God is the only reason they find.

But. Anyone with any small measure of intelligence shouldn't need that as motivation. I'm no genius; not even halfway to clever. And yet I have never felt the need for God as a 'guiding moral compass', as such.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on December 07, 2010, 05:00:15 PM
:)

I know the common argument from people who have not had a religious experience is that you thought you saw something, and have convinced yourself that it is definately this, that or the other and has some true significance, even if may just be a coincidence, a dream or a trick of the light.

when you're the person who's had the experience, you KNOW what you've experienced. it is so crystal clear and obvioius what is going on that you will never ever doubt yourself and what you've experienced. i've got no easy way of explaining it i'm afraid, but if you had one you'd know.

i've seen weird things seemingly fly past in the corner of my eye, the sort of things people claim as 'ghosts'. these are the sort of things the arguments works on- yes. it's true. you can't be sure if it's your imagination, wanting to see something and giving a trick of the light significance. but when you have a true religious experience YOU KNOW IT. and it has a true life-changing significance upon you. there is no explanation that


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on December 07, 2010, 05:02:42 PM
That anyone can give you that can shake your confidence at all in what you've seen because it's all far too clean-cut, detailed and intricate to be anything but reality.

and i think that's the best way i can possibly explain it i'm afraid.

^_^


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on December 07, 2010, 05:08:47 PM
(Just in case it wasn't clear- the 'ghost' example was something i thought was a coincidence. my true religious experience example refers to my repeated angelic visitations through which my angel has helped me overcome OCD behaviour, eating problems, and lack of self love and confidence ^_^ I've seen, heard and felt the presence of my angel on a number of occasions. as well as received answers to prayers on a more regular level)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 08, 2010, 09:51:12 AM
o.O You must be epic, XG! :D

Anyway, to me, religion has done me good. xD Too bad, it has not done good to everyone.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 08, 2010, 04:34:29 PM
No, it hasn't done everyone good. At least you recognise that.

XG - I really hate to say this - but you know that is a common phenomena, right? I heard about things like this, and it can unfortunately be rationalised. Your subconscious creates and projects a desire, maybe to overcome ocd behaviour, in order for the need/desire to be realised? It's good if nothing can shake your belief in what happened, by the way, I'd feel terrible if this upset you or made you change your mind - ignore me, okay? Just rambling! :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on December 08, 2010, 05:14:06 PM
Lmao! it's real- okay?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on December 08, 2010, 05:14:42 PM
XYYYYYYYYYYY TEXT MEEEEE

My mummy belives in angels


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 09, 2010, 08:14:57 AM
At least you recognise that.

Now, that was rude. -_-

Anyway, I think 'religious experiences' are possible. They're just like divinations or something like that.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on December 09, 2010, 10:48:30 AM
To silver:

sorry my little roast chesnut! ^_^ i shall texty you!! xxx


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on December 09, 2010, 11:50:33 AM
Xy: REPLYYYY!

Topic: I has nvr had a religious experiance


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 09, 2010, 04:13:36 PM
Quote
Now, that was rude. -_-
What? D: Why? I didn't mean it to be! What I was trying to say was that you recognise religion isn't for everyone! Believe it or not, most people aren't so considerate! I'm sorry! I wasn't trying to insult you! Really, that wasn't my intention.  :'(


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 10, 2010, 07:36:21 AM
You said 'At least' which was like an insult to me. Hmm, something like that xD


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 10, 2010, 05:57:11 PM
I meant at least you as in at least some people know religion isn't for everyone... I really, honestly didn't mean to be rude. Sorry.  :'(


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 13, 2010, 06:31:10 AM
Okay. I don't actually know what to say 'cause I have moved on already. xD

Anyway, I have a question for you, Saveyna. Have you ever attended a mass? If yes, what do they say there? o.o


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 16, 2010, 04:16:41 PM
You're kidding. I wouldn't go within a mile of a church if I had a choice in such matters. Which thankfully, now I do. I didn't used to (have a choice, I mean). So no, I have never attended a mass, or not one I remember.

Why do you ask? :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on December 16, 2010, 05:30:26 PM
i dont even know what mass is  :-\


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 17, 2010, 07:20:34 AM
You're kidding. I wouldn't go within a mile of a church if I had a choice in such matters. Which thankfully, now I do. I didn't used to (have a choice, I mean). So no, I have never attended a mass, or not one I remember.

Why do you ask? :)

Um, why?

i dont even know what mass is  :-\

A mass is where people gather inside a church. There's a priest in front and he's the one leading the mass. There's a part in the mass where the priest makes sermons. There are acolytes and other church people inside too. (Bah! I couldn't explain it well lol)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on December 17, 2010, 11:35:59 AM
*is confused*

... oh is it a catholic thing?
that would explain why i havnt a clue. for my family are prodestant


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 17, 2010, 04:09:09 PM
What do you mean, why? I'm curious about why you asked! It sounds random; was there any reason you want/need to know this for? :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 19, 2010, 06:43:43 AM
*is confused*

... oh is it a catholic thing?
that would explain why i havnt a clue. for my family are prodestant
Yes its catholic.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 20, 2010, 09:56:02 AM
What do you mean, why? I'm curious about why you asked! It sounds random; was there any reason you want/need to know this for? :)

I mean, why...um, nevermind.

*is confused*

... oh is it a catholic thing?
that would explain why i havnt a clue. for my family are prodestant
Yes its catholic.

It's not necessarily Catholic.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 20, 2010, 04:32:10 PM
Lol. T.E., you can be random! :D A useful talent, that is. What other religion has mass then?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 21, 2010, 07:40:10 AM
lol :D. Anyway, I think other Christian religions have Masses too. :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 27, 2010, 05:05:56 AM
Just wondering, do you believe in Jesus Christ, or that he exists? He was a living person after all. xD


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 27, 2010, 10:03:25 AM
I dont know if he exists currently, but i know that he existed 2k years ago. If you are asking me of course :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 28, 2010, 06:41:23 AM
Right.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 28, 2010, 06:56:11 AM
Right.
was that supposed to be sarcastic? o.O :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 28, 2010, 12:43:55 PM
...You guys are strange! Lol. Did they find the teeth of Jesus then? Because you know dental records can tell you a lot. I just want to know how they found out a guy called Jesus existed.

Actually, scratch that. The likelihood of there never having been someone called Jesus is tiny. It's whether he actually did all the stuff in the bible. Maybe he was an advanced form of illusionist.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 29, 2010, 08:20:15 AM
Right.
was that supposed to be sarcastic? o.O :)

No lol. Why does everyone think it is sarcastic whenever I say 'Right.'? xD

Well, Saveyna, did you ask Google if they found such teeth? xD :D Anyway, nah, He can't only be an illusionist. I know that it's hard to prove that miracles exist until you see them but, the word 'miracle' wouldn't exist if no one ever believed them. Criss Angel is a master illusionist, but I've never heard about him curing someone, have you? Hmm...


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 29, 2010, 09:16:30 AM
...You guys are strange! Lol. Did they find the teeth of Jesus then? Because you know dental records can tell you a lot. I just want to know how they found out a guy called Jesus existed.

Actually, scratch that. The likelihood of there never having been someone called Jesus is tiny. It's whether he actually did all the stuff in the bible. Maybe he was an advanced form of illusionist.

I dont need any proof that he existed. But for you, even if they find his teets what will you do with them? :D they did not had dental records at that time. lol :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Baelali on December 29, 2010, 09:20:10 AM
Right.
was that supposed to be sarcastic? o.O :)

No lol. Why does everyone think it is sarcastic whenever I say 'Right.'? xD

Well, Saveyna, did you ask Google if they found such teeth? xD :D Anyway, nah, He can't only be an illusionist. I know that it's hard to prove that miracles exist until you see them but, the word 'miracle' wouldn't exist if no one ever believed them. Criss Angel is a master illusionist, but I've never heard about him curing someone, have you? Hmm...
Everything written in the bible could be lie. He could be illusionist, healing could be fake (just written in the bible even if it did not happen(its not impossible, if you do not believe look for the reason for Vietnam war.)), or jesus could be manipulating matter, which is not impossible. I believe in my the last claim.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on December 30, 2010, 07:11:05 AM
Nobody knows for sure. :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on December 30, 2010, 08:10:35 AM
I think some things seem miraculous until you know how they are done. And even then, some are so brilliant they still deserve to be called miracles.
Manipulating matter; a carpenter in maybe 20AD manipulating matter. A wonderful concept, worthy of a film. But in reality? I think it's maybe a little far-fetched...no offence...as T.E. pointed out, it may be me who's wrong. All this is just speculation.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 07, 2011, 08:23:43 AM
- NEW QUESTION -

If ever you will meet God or get to ask Him something, what will you ask?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 07, 2011, 04:17:57 PM
If I meet God, it will be beyond my ability as any human's ability to accept and understand, and my head would explode long before I opened my mouth. The realisation God exists for certain would be enough to put any human in a mental asylum for extremely deranged patients.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on February 07, 2011, 05:00:31 PM
I wouldn't be shocked. Im already insane.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 08, 2011, 09:49:21 AM
Haha, nice one, Silver. xD :D

Anyway, let's just put it this way: What would you ask God?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on February 08, 2011, 11:42:58 AM
Hmmm...I'dask him if the answer to life, the universe and everything was 42. Or if unicorns exist. Or if I could have a unicorn :D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 09, 2011, 06:33:01 AM
Epic. I love it. :D You sound like Marshmallow from the Annoying Orange. lol :D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 09, 2011, 04:28:51 PM
Oh God, not the annoying orange, please!  ::) That thing is so annoying! I'm feeling in a philosophical mood. I'm lamenting the social conditioning we undergo. Don't ask, because I will write pages and pages in reply on the evils of the modern world. And probably bore you to death in the process; most people aren't interested in my semi-incoherent musings.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: MiddeM on February 10, 2011, 07:01:31 AM
I would ask him what is he and how did he created himself.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 10, 2011, 07:13:20 AM
Don't ask, because I will write pages and pages in reply on the evils of the modern world. And probably bore you to death in the process; most people aren't interested in my semi-incoherent musings.

o.o

I would ask him what is he and how did he created himself.

Is that even possible that He created Himself, o.o considering the statement He is the 'Alpha and the Omega'? Ooh. xD


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 10, 2011, 03:44:40 PM
God would have to exist before he can be alpha and omega. How can something create itself? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on February 10, 2011, 04:35:40 PM
Saveyna, I came before them.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 11, 2011, 07:30:30 AM
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I think, it's the chicken. :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on February 11, 2011, 12:43:13 PM
No, it's the Silver.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 11, 2011, 04:51:31 PM
T.E.: Justify! :)

Silver: Of course you came first, O mighty primordial being. I never doubted! :P :D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on February 11, 2011, 05:44:37 PM
Stephen fry said it was the egg- cos the chicken resulted from a mutated reptile egg.

so the real question is

'what came first? the reptile or the egg?'


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on February 11, 2011, 05:58:26 PM
I told you people, I came first. Gawsh.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 12, 2011, 08:15:29 AM
Stephen fry said it was the egg- cos the chicken resulted from a mutated reptile egg.

so the real question is

'what came first? the reptile or the egg?'

T.E.: Justify! :)

Because, most probably, the reptile was formed first. Scientifically, only the reproductive system of the reptile is designed to and can make eggs. Religiously, God made the reptile first and gave it the capability to reproduce by laying eggs. :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 12, 2011, 05:43:10 PM
Seriously? We're less important to God than reptiles? I hope he didn't make them in his image. Anyway, T.E., this discussion hinges on a belief in God. I thought you weren't religious?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 13, 2011, 06:20:57 AM
Huh?? What I meant was reptiles were formed first before the egg. Who said we're less important than reptiles? o.o And, you thought I wasn't religious? Seriously? o.O I thought you already knew like ages ago.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on February 13, 2011, 09:09:58 AM
Huh?? What I meant was reptiles were formed first before the egg. Who said we're less important than reptiles? o.o And, you thought I wasn't religious? Seriously? o.O I thought you already knew like ages ago.

Actually since both fish and amphibians reproduce by laying eggs one would have to say that eggs existed before reptiles.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 13, 2011, 12:06:21 PM
What? O.o But... in another topic, xg thought you had strong belief and you said you didn't!

And in the hierarchy of things, the stuff that you do first is usually most important, unless you're Silver, who naturally does it backwards.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on February 13, 2011, 04:21:38 PM
Yep. Lmao.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on February 14, 2011, 01:32:16 AM
o_o i don't think that theory bides well with that of evolution- in which case the least advanced comes first?

maybe superiorty is just an illusion- has anyone ever thought of that? after all- we're all interdependent- our ecosystem begins to really fail when you minus a species. maybe we all have an equal part to play in this world?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 14, 2011, 07:52:30 AM
What? O.o But... in another topic, xg thought you had strong belief and you said you didn't!

And in the hierarchy of things, the stuff that you do first is usually most important, unless you're Silver, who naturally does it backwards.

She said that I changed my mind about religion which I didn't. That's what I said. o.o

o_o i don't think that theory bides well with that of evolution- in which case the least advanced comes first?

maybe superiorty is just an illusion- has anyone ever thought of that? after all- we're all interdependent- our ecosystem begins to really fail when you minus a species. maybe we all have an equal part to play in this world?

What theory? Anyway, the theory of Evolution supports the theory that higher classes of animals (such as humans) came later. Organisms naturally develop and improve in order to survive. Devolution is rather rare, I think.

Also, I think, it's most probable that microorganisms evolved to form bigger organisms such as animals first and not products like eggs. Scientifically, only reptiles, fishes, amphibians, and birds can lay eggs. Eggs are just the fact that living organisms have the capability and natural instinct to reproduce anyway. Also, the question is just like 'What came first: the mammal or the milk'?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 14, 2011, 11:26:32 AM
Ah, but xg, it isn't meant to fit with evolution. God doesn't fit with evolution.


Title: re: does god exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on February 14, 2011, 05:33:39 PM
^_^ Don't do a Dawkins- we want to discuss god, not God.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 15, 2011, 07:41:37 AM
Actuallly, XG, either of the two is fine. :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on February 15, 2011, 08:51:16 AM
Ah, but xg, it isn't meant to fit with evolution. God doesn't fit with evolution.

Actually there is a school of thought in which the concept of a Deity fits very well with the Theory of Evolution.  It's called Process Theology:  These are the some of the main points:

# God is not omnipotent in the sense of being coercive. The divine has a power of persuasion rather than coercion. Process theologians interpret the classical doctrine of omnipotence as involving force, and suggest instead a forbearance in divine power. "Persuasion" in the causal sense means that God does not exert unilateral control.

# Reality is not made up of material substances that endure through time, but serially-ordered events, which are experiential in nature. These events have both a physical and mental aspect. All experience (male, female, atomic, and botanical) is important and contributes to the ongoing and interrelated process of reality.

# The universe is characterized by process and change carried out by the agents of free will. Self-determination characterizes everything in the universe, not just human beings. God cannot totally control any series of events or any individual, but God influences the creaturely exercise of this universal free will by offering possibilities. To say it another way, God has a will in everything, but not everything that occurs is God's will.[

# God contains the universe but is not identical with it (panentheism, not pantheism or pandeism). Some also call this "theocosmocentrism" to emphasize that God has always been related to some world or another.

# Because God interacts with the changing universe, God is changeable (that is to say, God is affected by the actions that take place in the universe) over the course of time. However, the abstract elements of God (goodness, wisdom, etc.) remain eternally solid.

For many of us who are Pagan Process Theology which fits nicely with our view of the nature of the Divine and our understanding of scientific theory.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 15, 2011, 03:49:04 PM
Okay. Modification then. Most religious sects, for want of a better word, believe God and evolution as incompatible.


Title: re: does god exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on February 16, 2011, 01:40:51 AM
I'm a panentheist ^_^ what i mean by discussing god, not God- is that God is the christian one- who is omnipotent, omnibenbolent etc, where as 'god' as in a god- well, we can describe how we feel that god behaves or is etc and that could possibly fit into the whole process of things quite nicely, if we just stop talking about one who is personal and is the cause of EVERYthing that happens, and 'wouldn't does this to us if he 'loved' us'.

^_^ that's all i mean. and dawkins is absolutely famous for making that cock up


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 16, 2011, 06:13:38 AM
I wonder how Wiccans describe their Goddess. :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on February 16, 2011, 08:45:05 AM
I wonder how Wiccans describe their Goddess. :)

I guess that most of us Wiccans would then ask you which of our Goddesses you were asking about.  Wiccans by and large are polytheists and believe in the existence of many Gods and Goddesses.  I personally work mostly with the Goddess, Sekhmet in my personal practice; however, I do not deny the existence of many other Goddesses even in my own Egyptian pantheon.

In my coven work as a Gardnerian Wiccan I work with a completely different Goddess whose name is oath-bound to initiates of the Tradition only.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 16, 2011, 04:53:58 PM
How can you be so... complacent? Don't you get bored? I'd get bored so fast if I had to believe in one God, or any number in fact. I'd be able to answer all my questions. Then I would have no purpose, and I might get depressed again, and think too much. Not good. In fact, how do you not get depressed? Please don't take this the wrong way. I am genuinely curious about how you can cope.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 17, 2011, 06:53:41 AM
Huh? Why are you supposed to get bored? o.o You'll get bored for having a belief?

I wonder how Wiccans describe their Goddess. :)

I guess that most of us Wiccans would then ask you which of our Goddesses you were asking about.  Wiccans by and large are polytheists and believe in the existence of many Gods and Goddesses.  I personally work mostly with the Goddess, Sekhmet in my personal practice; however, I do not deny the existence of many other Goddesses even in my own Egyptian pantheon.

In my coven work as a Gardnerian Wiccan I work with a completely different Goddess whose name is oath-bound to initiates of the Tradition only.

Why do you believe in an Egyptian god? I mean, are you Egyptian? Anyway, I thought Wiccans have a main Goddess.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on February 17, 2011, 10:56:58 AM

Why do you believe in an Egyptian god? I mean, are you Egyptian? Anyway, I thought Wiccans have a main Goddess.

Nope, I'm not Egyptian and I was surprised when Sekhmet showed up during my meditations and made it very much known that she and I were going to be working together.  It wasn't a matter of me choosing her, it was a situation where I was having intense spiritual interactions with her during which she made it clear that we were going to have a relationship.

If you are speaking of British Traditional Wicca (BTW) there is a specific God and Goddess with whom we work.  Their names are never shared with those who are not initiates.  But that doesn't mean that we don't understand that there are many other Gods and Goddesses in addition to the Lord and Lady of BTW.

For other Wiccans there is no specific God or Goddess with whom they have to work.  Some will work with a generic "Moon Goddess" and "Horned God", but others will find themselves building relationships with Gods and Goddesses of different pantheons.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on February 17, 2011, 11:03:43 AM
How can you be so... complacent? Don't you get bored? I'd get bored so fast if I had to believe in one God, or any number in fact. I'd be able to answer all my questions. Then I would have no purpose, and I might get depressed again, and think too much. Not good. In fact, how do you not get depressed? Please don't take this the wrong way. I am genuinely curious about how you can cope.

I'm assuming that you were speaking to me in this post..if not I apologize.

Why do you think that having a belief in the existence of Deity would bore one?  Just because we believe in the existence of Divinity does not stop us from asking questions, searching, and learning.  Perhaps it even causes us to do it in greater depth.  We don't simply look at things such as creation and say "God did it."  We ask how, we ask why.  And we see ourselves intimately involved with the Divine in the ongoing changes around us.

How do I not get depressed?  Who says I don't?  I deal with depression in the same ways that others do.  I exercise, I keep my mind active (which is why I'm working on a second Master's degree at age 65, and I find things that interest and challenge me.  I also find that meditation and ritual work to strengthen my relationship to the Divine is helpful.

Just as an aside, I was an atheist for some 20 years.  I found that that was far more depressing than having a belief that there is a purpose to what we do.  Then one day the old Gods made themselves known to me in no uncertain terms.
There is nothing wrong with being an atheist or with being a theist...it is all something that is within yourself.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: MiddeM on February 17, 2011, 01:14:28 PM
With all my course in magick, and from really authentic information I think there is an ultimate divinity and many other aspects of it which we call gods. Smaller aspects became angels, humans... each of them dwelling  in a specific plain.

Purpose of each being is to evolve itself by learning different lessons in each of his lives (That is actually what happens in this plain, I do not know for the others yet).

From what I understood, this happens in order for each of us get evolved enough to understand the Ultimate Divinity. This happens during a long period (At least in this is plane where time exists). It must happen slowly and by having beings to guide is in the correct way (Jesus for example who with his teachings learned people that spirits does not die and that this planet was created for love and it created for love and that its being is a represent of that love. Sadly, some people who wish to control others changed Jesus's words in some ways, made him god and added dogmas that will control people or else they will get burned in a sad and horrible place called "Hell". That is terrorism and that is not a god of love because a god of love would never threat others "You come with me or you die and suffer for forever without ending". The real hell is ones next life in which his karma is so bad that he will leave a bad life to learn that the evil he cause was not something he/she should do, and it shows to him/her by causing her/him to live it. I am sorry for talking too much, I have much more things to tell about what really happened with Jesus but because I don't wish to get boring, I' ll stop here about it.

Just to now, a new oracle will come which she will write a book in which she will tell many truths about this plane, about life. She is female, she will come during these years, maybe in ten or twenty years, but she is near. That prophecy is not mine.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 17, 2011, 03:28:59 PM
It was a general question, for everyone! So thanks Lark, that's interesting. See, I found a belief more depressing. Well. It is personal, as you say. Anyway, I am unable to retain any sort of view for very long.

I have to have the possibility for the evolution of multiple different interpretations, branches I could consider. A God seems a little too... final? Not sure how to describe. What I mean is that although there are many branches of religion, there are almost never completely new... theories? I don't know, it sounded better in my head!


Title: re: does god exist?
Post by: lucky thirteen on February 18, 2011, 02:21:30 PM
Interesting- i went on a 'spiritual journey' cos i felt so down, didn't give a sh*t about muself, thought i was worthless, wasn't eating properly and couldn't even be bothered to dress adequately. now i've found my faith i'm completely different. i apprecite myself, i'm confident and happy, i've been offered a great promotion etc. i guess diffent things work for different people... ^_^


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 18, 2011, 05:42:56 PM
That is really, really strange how differently people react. Wow! :)


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 19, 2011, 06:32:50 AM
Told ya, Saveyna. XD *hints*


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 19, 2011, 07:02:01 AM
Yeah, yeah, you were right! Not my fault religion has negative connotations to me. I dislike being forced to do something.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 19, 2011, 08:07:34 AM
No one is forcing you. ;D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 19, 2011, 10:00:17 AM
Yes. They did.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 20, 2011, 08:32:38 AM
But no, God didn't. ;D xD


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: MiddeM on February 20, 2011, 10:50:00 AM
God didn't because god never created a religion nor said to humans to do all these dogmas.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 20, 2011, 11:23:50 AM
So anyone who isn't God is no-one? Lol, may want to rephrase that a little! :D


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 24, 2011, 09:00:41 AM
Please don't go off-topic on this thread which has been able to stay on topic throughout the first 11 pages.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 24, 2011, 10:24:23 AM
Sorry. But anyway, you did realise the implication of your post? Didn't you? :) Not strictly tactical!

I don't think god exists. Be nice if he did, comforting. You could ask questions.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 25, 2011, 07:52:40 AM
Sorry. But anyway, you did realise the implication of your post? Didn't you? :) Not strictly tactical!

Huh?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on February 25, 2011, 09:56:14 AM
Oh, not that one. The one where you said God didn't...?


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 26, 2011, 06:25:04 AM
I'm still confused. >.<


Title: Teleological argument. We Report, You decide!
Post by: Cassandra on May 21, 2011, 04:15:23 AM

Teleological Argument ? Argument for Design
The Teleological Argument comes down to design. The appearance that the universe was designed to support life on earth is overwhelming. Secular scientists have observed that for physical life to be possible in the universe, many characteristics must take on specific values, as referenced below. In the secular scientific world, this circumstance of apparent fine-tuning in the universe is not disputed, and is referred to as ?The Anthropic Principle.? Atheistic scientists have offered several unconvincing rationalizations for this having occurred without the involvement of a Divine Mind, but given the intricacy of the interrelationships between various features in the universe, the indication of divine "fine tuning" seems incontrovertible.

Teleological Argument ? A Fine-Tuned Universe
The list supporting the Teleological Argument seems to be growing larger and larger as scientists discover more about the universe. Even now, this is a very long list, and who really likes lists? However, when I discuss these issues with atheists, they often ask for ?details on this so-called fine-tuning,? so here?s the list:

Strong nuclear force constant
Weak nuclear force constant
Gravitational force constant
Electromagnetic force constant
Ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force constant
Ratio of proton to electron mass
Ratio of number of protons to number of electrons
Ratio of proton to electron charge
Expansion rate of the universe
Mass density of the universe
Baryon (proton and neutron) density of the universe
Space energy or dark energy density of the universe
Ratio of space energy density to mass density
Entropy level of the universe
Velocity of light
Age of the universe
Uniformity of radiation
Homogeneity of the universe
Average distance between galaxies
Average distance between galaxy clusters
Average distance between stars
Average size and distribution of galaxy clusters
Numbers, sizes, and locations of cosmic voids
Electromagnetic fine structure constant
Gravitational fine-structure constant
Decay rate of protons
Ground state energy level for helium-4
Carbon-12 to oxygen-16 nuclear energy level ratio
Decay rate for beryllium-8
Ratio of neutron mass to proton mass
Initial excess of nucleons over antinucleons
Polarity of the water molecule
Epoch for hypernova eruptions
Number and type of hypernova eruptions
Epoch for supernova eruptions
Number and types of supernova eruptions
Epoch for white dwarf binaries
Density of white dwarf binaries
Ratio of exotic matter to ordinary matter
Number of effective dimensions in the early universe
Number of effective dimensions in the present universe
Mass values for the active neutrinos
Number of different species of active neutrinos
Number of active neutrinos in the universe
Mass value for the sterile neutrino
Number of sterile neutrinos in the universe
Decay rates of exotic mass particles
Magnitude of the temperature ripples in cosmic background radiation
Size of the relativistic dilation factor
Magnitude of the Heisenberg uncertainty
Quantity of gas deposited into the deep intergalactic medium by the first supernovae
Positive nature of cosmic pressures
Positive nature of cosmic energy densities
Density of quasars
Decay rate of cold dark matter particles
Relative abundances of different exotic mass particles
Degree to which exotic matter self interacts
Epoch at which the first stars (metal-free pop III stars) begin to form
Epoch at which the first stars (metal-free pop III stars cease to form
Number density of metal-free pop III stars
Average mass of metal-free pop III stars
Epoch for the formation of the first galaxies
Epoch for the formation of the first quasars
Amount, rate, and epoch of decay of embedded defects
Ratio of warm exotic matter density to cold exotic matter density
Ratio of hot exotic matter density to cold exotic matter density
Level of quantization of the cosmic spacetime fabric
Flatness of universe's geometry
Average rate of increase in galaxy sizes
Change in average rate of increase in galaxy sizes throughout cosmic history
Constancy of dark energy factors
Epoch for star formation peak
Location of exotic matter relative to ordinary matter
Strength of primordial cosmic magnetic field
Level of primordial magnetohydrodynamic turbulence
Level of charge-parity violation
Number of galaxies in the observable universe
Polarization level of the cosmic background radiation
Date for completion of second reionization event of the universe
Date of subsidence of gamma-ray burst production
Relative density of intermediate mass stars in the early history of the universe
Water's temperature of maximum density
Water's heat of fusion
Water's heat of vaporization
Number density of clumpuscules (dense clouds of cold molecular hydrogen gas) in the universe
Average mass of clumpuscules in the universe
Location of clumpuscules in the universe
Dioxygen's kinetic oxidation rate of organic molecules
Level of paramagnetic behavior in dioxygen
Density of ultra-dwarf galaxies (or supermassive globular clusters) in the middle-aged universe
Degree of space-time warping and twisting by general relativistic factors
Percentage of the initial mass function of the universe made up of intermediate mass stars
Strength of the cosmic primordial magnetic field1

Teleological Argument ? Mathematical Impossibility without a Designer
The Teleological Argument reflects one of three possibilities for the existence of this incredible fine-tuning: law, chance or design. Scientists have puzzled over it for years and have found no natural laws that can account for it. The odds against such a theory ever being discovered seem insurmountable. Even Stephen Hawking, who was originally a believer in a ?Theory of Everything? that could possibly explain the fine-tuning as necessary by law, after considering G?del's Theorem concluded that one was not obtainable. He states: ?Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind.?2

Since the threshold of mathematical impossibility is 1 in 10 to the 50th power, and the odds of this fine-tuning coming into existence by chance are far, far beyond that, we can rule out chance. Only a transcendent Creator makes sense of this unbelievably complex order in the universe.

During the last 35 years or so, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life absolutely depends upon this very delicate and complex balance of initial conditions. It appears that ?the deck was stacked? in the substances, constants and quantities of the Big Bang itself, to provide a life-permitting universe. We now know through modern science that life-prohibiting universes are vastly more probable than any life-permitting universe like ours. How much more probable?

Well, the answer is that the chances that the universe should be life-permitting are so infinitesimally small as to be incomprehensible and incalculable. For example, Stephen Hawking has estimated that if the rate of the universe's expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have re-collapsed into a hot fireball due to gravitational attraction.3 Physicist P.C.W. Davies has calculated that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for star formation (without which planets could not exist) is one followed by at least a thousand billion billion zeroes!4 Davies also calculates that a change in the strength of gravity or of the weak force by merely one part in 10 raised to the 100th power (!) would have prevented a life-permitting universe.5 As we saw in the previous lists, there are dozens and dozens of such constants and quantities present in the Big Bang which must be exquisitely fine-tuned in this way if the universe is to permit life. Moreover, it's not only each individual quantity or constant which must be finely tuned; their ratios to each other must also be exquisitely finely tuned. Therefore, vast improbability is multiplied by vast improbability, and yet again by vast improbability repeatedly until our minds are simply reeling in vanishingly small odds.

There is no plausible physical reason why these constants and quantities should have the values that they do. Reflecting on this, the once-agnostic physicist P.C.W. Davies comments, "Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing that I cannot accept it merely as a brute fact."6 Likewise, British Astrophysicist Sir Frederick Hoyle remarks, "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics."7 Robert Jastrow, the head of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, refers to this as ?the most powerful evidence for the existence of God ever to come out of science.?8

Teleological Argument ? What?s More Reasonable, Design or Chance?
In the final analysis, it seems the Teleological Argument has strong scientific, philosophical, and theological legs. The view that Christian theists have historically held, that there is an intelligent Designer of the universe, seems to make so much more sense than the atheistic alternative: The universe, when it popped into being, without cause, out of nothing, just happened to be, by chance, fine-tuned for intelligent life with a mind-numbingly unlikely precision and delicacy. To call the odds against this fine-tuning occurring by chance ?astronomical? would be a wild understatement.

Learn More!

NOTES
Compliments of Steve J. Williams. Rendered with permission from the book, The Skeptics? Guide to Eternal Bliss (2nd ed), Steve J. Williams, Lulu Press, 2009. All rights reserved in the original.

1Most of the source references for ?The List? are found in The Creator and the Cosmos, 3rd edition by Hugh Ross (Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 2001), pp. 145-157, 245-248. Additional references are listed in the Related Article accompanying this piece to the right side.

2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything.

3 Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam Books, 1988), p. 123.

4 P.C.W. Davies, Other Worlds (London: Dent, 1980), pp. 168, 169.

5 P.C. W. Davies, ?The Anthropic Principle?, in Particle and Nuclear Physics

6 Paul Davies, The Mind of God (New York: Simon & Shuster, 1992), p. 169.

7 Fred Hoyle, ?The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,? Engineering and Science (November, 1981), p. 12.

8 Robert Jastrow, ?The Astronomer and God?, in The Intellectuals Speak Out About God, ed. Roy Abraham Varghese (Chicago: Regenery Gateway, 1984) p. 22.



Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: MiddeM on May 25, 2011, 11:33:06 AM
Dear, if you want anyone to pay attention at your posts, they must be in a logical size. If you enjoy making articles it is fine but not all people are willing to read the whole thing you wrote and simply you will be ignored with that way..


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on May 25, 2011, 08:55:33 PM
If you're going to cut and paste from another site it would be a good idea to cite the source of your information.  Also, rather than cutting and pasting a long article you might want to post a short introduction and then a link to the original site.

-Lark-
Forum Moderator


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Victor on May 26, 2011, 06:25:01 AM
true but I'll start doing it too!


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on May 26, 2011, 11:33:27 AM
If I may point out a little error... weak nuclear forces have been unified with electromagnetism in electroweak force, conveyed by -w, w and z bosons. They are no longer considered seperate entities.
Also that article convinces me of nothing, certainly not the existence of God. Steven Hawking has unfortunately clearly not heard the news that proof of string theory, a complete unification, will be obtainable in the next few years via the manifestation of multiple dimensions in particle colliders. Of course, it isn't certain, but seems likely.
I have studied string theory in part; it is a beautifully elegant solution. The only problem is M-theory, a quantum mechanical theory with eleven dimensional supergravity as its lower energy limit. I thought proof would come through supersymmetry, but there we go.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Cassandra on May 29, 2011, 08:07:52 AM
Well, I suppose I posted the entire article because understanding does require extensive reading. There is a bibliolography at the bottom where the sources are. Here is a link to another if that helps. I simply assumed that NO ONE clicked on links.
I have actually read one or two of these books.
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/teleo.html


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Saveyna Moonshadow on May 30, 2011, 09:47:19 AM
Well, they aren't scientifically very up to date! Electroweak has been around for ages!


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: rob on June 24, 2011, 12:12:53 AM
If you're going to cut and paste from another site it would be a good idea to cite the source of your information.  Also, rather than cutting and pasting a long article you might want to post a short introduction and then a link to the original site.

-Lark-
Forum Moderator

It's okay to post the entire article in most cases.  Most people won't bother to follow a link these days, it makes it easier.  But a link at the end helps the original author.



Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on June 24, 2011, 08:16:46 AM
Yes. Posting something as if it's yours even though it's not is plagiarism.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Cassandra on June 24, 2011, 08:26:08 AM
You said
" I may point out a little error... weak nuclear forces have been unified with electromagnetism in electroweak force, conveyed by -w, w and z bosons. They are no longer considered seperate entities.
Also that article convinces me of nothing, certainly not the existence of God. Steven Hawking has unfortunately clearly not heard the news that proof of string theory, a complete unification, will be obtainable in the next few years via the manifestation of multiple dimensions in particle colliders. Of course, it isn't certain, but seems likely.
I have studied string theory in part; it is a beautifully elegant solution. The only problem is M-theory, a quantum mechanical theory with eleven dimensional supergravity as its lower energy limit. I thought proof would come through supersymmetry, but there we go."

  Well, I admit I have not extensively studied string theory and I presume most people have not. I fail to see what "a complete unification theory" does for the argument about design but that' s up to you. I'm a simple person, like most people and when I notice that this entire planet is just bursting, for just one example, with plant life that just happens to contain compounds that treat cancer and thousands of other conditions I see mercy there and design. But, I'm just a simple person.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on June 24, 2011, 08:39:06 AM
What article? o.o


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: mage master on July 06, 2011, 02:38:44 PM
Well, I admit I have not extensively studied string theory and I presume most people have not. I fail to see what "a complete unification theory" does for the argument about design but that' s up to you. I'm a simple person, like most people and when I notice that this entire planet is just bursting, for just one example, with plant life that just happens to contain compounds that treat cancer and thousands of other conditions I see mercy there and design. But, I'm just a simple person.

yes there is a plant that exists, that can treet cancer...
*sighs*
i dont feel like getting into this fully so heres a short snipit of my thoughts on the above quote

to utilise the compounds and use them effectivly human intervention is still required... take something symple for example, metal ore needs smelted down before it can be used as metal. drugs, medicine etc all require human intervention at some point to be created into something of use.
ya may be able to see mercy in the design however the process can be complex forcing humans to learn how to utilise the properties of... well anything. normaly by them mercy is thrown out the window for many many years even generations before the compounds can be appropiately and effectivly harnesed by humans


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Cassandra on July 28, 2011, 11:12:36 AM

yes there is a plant that exists, that can treet cancer...
*sighs*
i dont feel like getting into this fully so heres a short snipit of my thoughts on the above quote

to utilise the compounds and use them effectivly human intervention is still required... take something symple for example, metal ore needs smelted down before it can be used as metal. drugs, medicine etc all require human intervention at some point to be created into something of use.
ya may be able to see mercy in the design however the process can be complex forcing humans to learn how to utilise the properties of... well anything. normaly by them mercy is thrown out the window for many many years even generations before the compounds can be appropiately and effectivly harnesed by humans
[/quote]

  Well, I fail to see why that means that no one designed it. I still think I suppose simply. I ask my self "How did evolution put opium in the opium poppy before any intelligent humanoid life form existed to exploit it or cultivate it?" Why would blind evolution do that? It's a waste of the plant's energy. What purpose does taxol (breast cancer drug derived from the Pacific Yew tree) do for the plant? Nothing, that I can discern. Our planet is simply bursting with useful things like iron, gold, uranium, plants with useful drugs, plants that smell good, plants that take away pain. I see design in this and I am not going to change my mind.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Gold Fingers on July 29, 2011, 09:40:34 PM
Some doubt the existance of God because the evil in the world. But with out evil there is no good


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on July 30, 2011, 10:15:02 AM
^ True.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Cassandra on July 31, 2011, 01:15:09 PM
Some doubt the existance of God because the evil in the world. But with out evil there is no good

  You know. I have never understood why people believe that. You mean it isn't even theoretically possible for an individual to become so perfected that they do no evil at all? Good exists in and of itself and does not require evil for its existence. It is perfectly possible to create a world that is good, and only good. Man! what a pessimist!


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Jellybean-Kun on July 31, 2011, 04:37:50 PM
Psh, no o.o

For one, if you converted *everyone* in the world to be good and happy and sunshiney, I'd still be a [very bad word]


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Gold Fingers on August 01, 2011, 12:26:27 AM
XD but it IS impossible to have a perfect world. We will always have a bin laden or a hitler. Just give it some time and another pops up


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: RavenMoonstone1313 on October 10, 2012, 08:17:24 AM
An answer to the Atheist question(My family and friends are Atheist, though I'll talk about my little brother because he is the best example I can think of). My brother thinks that there is something greater but what is it? He's constantly bugging me asking me to provide proof that the gods and goddesses exist. Whenever I talk to him about religion he is always confused about there being a greater being.   


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: chrizzy on February 03, 2013, 08:46:24 AM
Yes, mythology gods do exist but I don't think there exists a god that forces and forbids people to do something...


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on February 04, 2013, 10:06:48 AM
Yes, mythology gods do exist but I don't think there exists a god that forces and forbids people to do something...

That is certainly true of the Deities worshiped by most modern Pagans.  As a Wiccan, I believe that my Gods give me free will to make my own choices.  That being said, they also leave me to deal with the consequences of those choices and sometimes the consequences can be very painful both in this life and in lives to come.

On the other hand, some Deities...particularly the God of the Bible...does seem to have set very firm rules of behavior, ie the Ten Commandments, which apply to his followers whether they be Jewish, Christian, or Muslim.  If I followed one of those faiths then I would have to believe of course that my God had forbidden certain actions I might take.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 05, 2013, 09:41:04 AM
Well, do not all religions have sets of moral guidelines? Wiccans have the Wiccan Rede.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on February 05, 2013, 05:13:16 PM
Well, do not all religions have sets of moral guidelines? Wiccans have the Wiccan Rede.

But the Wiccan Rede is merely advice on how to live, not a set of rules.  The idea that the Rede says you "must harm none" is a misunderstanding. The Rede says we are free to do any action that does not cause harm.  It is silent on those actions which do cause harm leaving it up to the individual Witch to decide what actions are appropriate in a given situation.

Modern Pagan religions tend to derive their ethical practices from internal virtues rather than externally applied rules.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 06, 2013, 07:13:50 AM
Ah. xD Still, it's a value that applies to every Wiccan. It's nearly the same with Christians having free will which they can use to disobey the rules or obey them.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on February 06, 2013, 10:04:21 AM
I think when you get right down to it all religions try to teach us how to honor the Divine and live rightly with our fellow man.  I believe that Jesus articulated it rather well with his two commandments, " Love thy God" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself."


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Thrystal Encantatore on February 07, 2013, 10:02:36 AM
Technically, that was given by God Himself. Anyway, yes, they are commandments, but free will exists. That's what I'm trying to say.


Title: Re: Does God Exist?
Post by: Lark on February 07, 2013, 10:30:28 AM
Technically, that was given by God Himself. Anyway, yes, they are commandments, but free will exists. That's what I'm trying to say.

Only if you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God and not something written by a variety of different men over thousands of years.  As a member of a non-Abrahamic faith I tend towards the latter.

But I definitely agree with you on the concept of free will.  That is a central part of the modern Pagan religions.  We have guidelines, but no rules.  We decide for ourselves what is right and then accept the consequences of our actions.